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First let me say, MJ is and always has been my man. Okay...
Ed, your last two paragraphs are kinda weird.
Kobe appears to have grown tremendously this year. I know it's easy to "grow" in a fresh winning environment. But we must acknowledge that Kobe is far more mature than he used to be, and he has always been a leader in terms of showing teammates the kind of commitment it takes to play at the top of your game. I'm not a big fan of Kobe Bryant, but my respect for him as a player has grown more than I ever thought it would, and I don't like to see anyone unreasonably disparaged.
The reasons the Lakers lost are far more vast than the individual contributions of KB and KG. The biggest one of all is Celtics team defense.
There's no doubt Kobe is every bit the athlete that MJ was. But there's the obvious hardware discrepancy. And until Kobe has six rings or his career is at least close to over, this argument is a bit like counting chickens before they hatch. And though I'm not a big fan, I sincerely want to see Kobe at his best until he retires. I want solid statistics to compare once both of their careers are complete. Not that this debate will ever truly be settled, I just have little interest in finalizing it until it can rightly be done.
And lastly, Ed... once you reveal yourself as a Kobe hater, which in my opinion you did, you discredit your argument.
Just my 2ยข.
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I think the 2008 Finals has ended all debate about Jordan vs Kobe.
In the meantime, I want to give big ups to Garnett.
KG is the reason why we like to watch basketball.
A real basketball player isn't only about scoring a lot points, getting huge endorsement and get everyone to ooooh and aahhh.
A real basketball player is someone who plays hard every game, BE HUMBLE, help teammates to score, rebound the ball, plays team basketball, assist, block shots, play defense and most importantly motivate his teammates to win.
KG has all these.
Kobe has very little of these and most importantly, he likes to tear his teammates down to win.
Both approaches may work in terms of winning a championship. But that is why KG is genuinely loved and Kobe tends to be vilified.
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Reggie, it's possible that you are correct. But there's a little flaw in what you are saying because it is also possible that you are incorrect. For example, my stats would be better as a Laker than as a Grizzlie as well. Does that simply mean Kobe made me better? Or is it simply because I went to a better team, with better players overall. Obviously it is easier to play with better players with superstars than it is with a bunch of scrubs. But that doesn't mean Kobe himself made others better. Your evidence doesn't lead to one answer, but what you are saying is definitely possible.
Regarding Nash and O'Neal that is a different argument so you are putting apples with oranges here. Shaq is in the twighlight of his career and was a washout at Miami that people were shocked that Suns would risk such a trade. Nash does make his teammates better - if you don't believe that, I don't think you have any credit in on this topic. Imagine taking Nash away from the Suns, I don't think they would be anywhere near the caliber of team they are now. There are also two MVP's trophies in Nash's house that Kobe didn't win to justify this. Just because adding an old O'Neal who did not fit on this team means that Nash did not make his teammates better.
Finally, when did I not give Kobe credit for this year? I've consistenly said that Kobe has been the best player in the game today. It's just that #1. he's not the greatest of all time. MJ is. #2. he's not the MVP of this season, CP3 is.
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I swear Jordan fans are so insecure when it comes to Kobe Bryant it is pathetic. To build Jordan up they have to tear down Kobe. Ed how can you say Kobe doesn't make his teammates better. Just compare the first half of the season when Gasol was in Memphis to the 2nd half now that he is in LA. He FG percentage goes from 50.1% in Memphis up to 58.9 % in LA. Hmm coincidence? His assist, blocks, and steals are up. He is averaging the nearly the same amount of points fewer minutes. His turnovers and personal fouls are down also. So as good as Gasol was before coming to LA, he is that much better playing alongside of Kobe. Do you need more evidence? All of Kwame's Brown stats are down since going to Memphis. Field goal percentage, rebounds, assist, steals, and blocks are all down since getting traded to Memphis. Kwame best years statisically has been the one's in LA. Should I go on. Smush Parker best years was also in LA. He goes down to Miami and plays with DWade who supposely makes his teammates and what happens all his numbers drop. In fact the Heat dropped Parker during the season. Parker was a starting PG for the Lakers, but couldn't hold a spot on the worst team in Basketball. Look at ever team that made a big trade this and look how it made there teams worst. I thought Steve Nash made his teammates better? I though Shaq made his teammates better? What happened? I think MJ is the GOAT, but at the same time you still have to give Kobe credit for what his has done this year. He is not the same selfish player he was in his early days.
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Garvin, I see your pt. I think there's a difference between making your teammates better (elevate your teammates) and dropping dimes. It is easier to drop dimes when you have BETTER teammates around you. If I played on a team with Jordan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, I'm sure I'd have more assist than if I had played with my playground homies. The Lakers are a better team now with better players (Gasol). That doesn't necessarily mean Kobe had made them better. If you look at Jordan's career, he nutured Pippen and Grant as rookies into all stars. He never inherited an all-star like Gasol who was a ROY and best player on his original team. If anything, the Lakers success is more attributed to Mitch Kupchak (*gasp*) and his draft picks & trades. This is not to take anything away from Kobe. But bottom is this: CP3 has demonstrated in these playoffs he is the MVP of this season. And MJ has demonstrated in his career that he is the greatest of all time.
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and to u guys that say KOBE DOESNT ELEVATE HIS TEAMMATES...I MEAN DO U THINK KOBE JUST LEARNED TO DROP DIMES OVER NIGHT! NO, HIS TEAMMATES AFTER SHAQ WERENT ABLE TO FINISH, BUT NOW THEY ARE AND KOBES THIRD LIFE HAS BEGUN.. HAHA BASKETBALL IS THE SHIT! AND I LOVE THIS GAME!
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JORDAN WAS WAY MORE SUCCESSFUL n winning rings , hit all the big shots when it came down to it....KOBE is a far more superior shooter from outside, but now with better teammates he wows us whith his nasty (in a good sense) passes. They both have the same swagger, which ppl say Kobe immitates Jordan, but who doesnt immitate JORDAN? lol everyone does in some shape n form.. JORDAN N KOBE ARE EQUAL IN MY EYES, NO OTHER PERSON OTHER THAN THOSE 2 WHO I WOULD WANT WITH THE BALL DOWN 1 WITH 5 SECONDS LEFT! RIGHT!
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My sentiments exactly, Ed. The NBA now is filled with softies and whiners, and what constitutes a superstar nowadays is someone who is willing to get beat up and can shoot a high clip at the line. tony parker would never average 20 points in the 90's.
btw, the spurs are garbage. you see their hack-a-shaq in game 2? i mean, yeah, it's in the game, but so's flagrant fouling, but that doesn't mean you should do it if it gives your team an advantage. and manu is the biggest flopper of all time. i hope he flops on top of a rusty nail and gets lockjaw.
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I agree about today's defense being easier. If you look at the comments @ the current Wiz vs Cavs series, everyone there is saying how plays are so much softer now. You can't even give a hard foul without flagrant being called. Any hard foul on Lebron is auto-flagrant. Remember when the Pistons and Knicks use to rough up Jordan consistently yet MJ still had the highest scoring average in the playoffs of all times.
Finally, for those that said today's players are better. Don't forget it is a 40 year old jordan who dropped 50 points vs the modern, more athletic player in 2003. Imagine what Jordan in his prime would've done with today's players.
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i remember when soda was a nickel.
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one more thing...don't forget how the nba toned down defense to "allow for a more free-flowing and entertaining style of basketball". basically, all the great on-the-ball defenders who made mj's life miserable were handcuffed because of this rule. that's why the season directly after, you had more than a few players with 30 ppg averages. not because they were great scorers, but because they exploited the rule and visited the stripe...sometimes as many times as 28 a game (i'm looking at YOU, kobe!). what was once an accomplishment attained by only the great scorers, was now being done by anyone who could and would throw their bodies in the lane and wait for the inevitable whistle. kobe scored more than 30 points in one game and took less than 8 shots. that's a shame and it tarnishes the 30ppg stat. mj had joe dumars, derek harper and an assortment of rough-and-tumble teams to fight through to get his. kobe has bruce bowen and his dirty-ass defense. think about it, how many wing players now are considered great defensively versus back when mj played.
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anyone can run down the court and dunk the ball. the players mj played against were more fundamentally sound versus the one kobe's up against. jordan was stronger and went to the hole with more determination and conviction. kobe flails his limbs at the slightest hint of contact, hoping to get to the line.
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"kobe is the best player within a crop of some of the best players ever to play. the athleticism now is crazy."
wait, so this crop of players was better than the crop MJ played with? i don't think you remember who MJ battled. dr. j at the tail end of his career, magic AND bird in their prime, isiah thomas, a young barkley, akeem, drexler, the pistons when they were the bad boys, the lakers when they were showtime, the 90's knicks...i think you're forgetting a lot of talent out there, and that's the point. there's a huge difference between athleticism and talent/skill.
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kobe is the best player within a crop of some of the best players ever to play. the athleticism now is crazy.
jordan is jordan. he was amazing. easily the best when he played. and probably at the right place at the right time with the bulls teams.
you can't compare them head to head. it will always be a debate. they'll never play eachother in their primes.
it's actually kind of ridiculous to debate. and i like kobe because most people outright hate him.
and yeah, word to cp3. too fun to watch, man...
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Jordan is better. End of discussion
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By the way I hate Kobe he's a egotistical player never elevating the team the way Jordan did. You have to see past the rape charges and tuants and see a player who's put up some numbers in his day.
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Thinking it over your right . I respect Jordan is the best ever to pick up a ball. If both players could play a 1 on 1 in thier prime I feel Kobe comes out on top. And as for CP he is starting to work into his prime with an amazing statistical season (& what he means to the hornets). Were as Kobe is starting on his way out.
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Ed M,
Your statements are either flat out wrong or stated in a way that isn't truely correct. First of all, Jordan DID pickup 50 in consecutive nights. In fact, Michael Jordan scored 50 or more points in three consecutive games in April 1987: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-6bTscctJY
Then you stated after Kobe doesn't have Shaq - he's still doing his thing (80pts) as if he's done 80pts before that - he hadn't.
Then you stated Jordan had Rodman & Pippen with him the WHOLE time, he hadn't. Only for the last 3 championship 95-98, did he have them both.
Jordan vs Kobe is not Russell vs Wilt. Kobe has 0 MVPs, 0 Finals MVP, 0 seasons he was the best player on a championship team. In another words, how can you compare Kobe to the Greatest Player of All Times when he hasn't even been the best player in a SINGLE nba season.
And just in case you are wondering about this season, Chris Paul has had a better season than Kobe, although I concede Kobe is likely to win it this year for the same reason Karl Malone won it over Jordan previously.
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Brian I agree but Jordan in all his greatness never dropped 80 or picked up 50 in consecutive nights. Also Kobe doesn't have Shaq and is still doing his thing (80pts). Jordan had Rodman and Pippen with him the whole time. Comparing these two is like Bill Russel vs. Chamberlin or Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning.
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Like most the guys here, I'm a Jordan fan.. That being said, I actually liked Kobe when he first got into the NBA. Namely right after he did the under the leg dunk during the dunk contest, and right after he landed, he started taunting.. I went "Holy crap! What a cocky guy! I love this guy!".. even had the first Kobe from Adidas.. loved it...Kobe was fine for the 1st few years, but then came the drama.
Skill wise, I would still pick MJ. One thing that I never see on Kobe's highlights.. gracefulness.. Yeah sure, the ball still went in..but the way Jordan did it (even that circus shot where he did a reverse lay-up with one hand holding the other one to adjust the power) was just graceful..
From a mental perspective, Jordan is more in control, I hardly see him getting intimidated (hah) or lost his temper that he blew the game. Kobe would get pissed off, shoot some bad shoots, miss them all.. and keep shooting again. I remembered watching the Lakers game a few years back.. and all I can say was "ur throwing bricks! PASS the ball!".
I haven't been following the games recently,mainly due to the fact that I'm in a soccer heaven,where all the sport channels show soccer games all the time >_< But when I do see Kobe play, it was as if he was reluctant to pass the ball.. felt like he didn't have confidence in the guy next to him to put the ball in..especially on crunch time.. I do remember Jordan letting go of the ball for the winning shot.. to Paxton... Kerr..
On a 1 on 1 game, both players at their prime, I think Jordan will only need to pull a few fancy moves, taunt Kobe, and win the game. Jordan thrived on being challenged, Kobe gets emotional and will try to rule the universe
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who is? who was? who will be? Kobe is really good player, but he doesn`t have charisma and don`t know how to win games with team. May be he is better 1on1 but basket is about 5on5, and Mike was doing basketball players around him better, kobe don`t know how to do it ...
Mike is better i think ...
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Johnny I had the same thing happen on my computer with the threads.
Ryan- I agree with you. I don't care for Kobe's personality, but I think that ultimately has something to do with people's success not only in sports but in life too. I have been on several teams where the whole team was brought down by one or two guys who didn't really share the same desire to fit in with everyone else or the same ideas about how the team was working and it brought everyone down. That never seemed to be the case with the Bulls because MJ wouldn't let it happen, but the Lakers...
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IS it this way for only me, or everyone, but I click on Jordan Brand the gift or the curse, and the chat part is for Kobe vs Jordan??
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Kobe might be better at some things. And he even might end up with 6 or more rings (not that that's the only measure). But he's always going to have a hard time winning his due share of votes in this arguement, simply because of his persona. His meltdown a couple weeks ago demanding to be traded is just another episode in the whacky world he's created with himself and the media and thereby with us.
If Mike ever had meltdowns like that, he sure didn't call talk radio shows or other media outlets to broadcast it.
(At this point Kobe apologists commence to bash Ryan Holler.)
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......I think Kobe is better..I can't explain but that's real...and I'm not a big fan of Bryant..
Good topic!
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Thanks Ryan, I meant to post it in the other thread.
For this thread topic I think that MJ is still better than Kobe up to this point in his career for the fact as I had said that he seemed to will his other teammates to become better(granted some were already very good) where as I don't see Kobe pushing his teammates that way. I could be biased because I live on the east coast and don't get many Lakers' games televised, but I just don't see Kobe forcing the rest of his teammates to strive for perfection and get better the way that Jordan did.
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Andrew, did you mean to post this here? ^^ It seems like it's a better comment for thread titled, "The Gift or The Curse", especially the first paragraph. I suggest you copy it over to that thread.
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First off I don't really believe in curses like that but it's interesting to think about. I think the difference between those JB guys listed above and MJ himself is that, with the exception of a few (Kidd, Melo and Jeter), they all seem to be somewhat content with what they have accomplished. What I mean is that MJ always had that overwhelming desire and passion to be better. He didn't care if he was already the best he wanted to be better. He wasn't satisfied with one championship so he won five more. I don't see some of those guys above as wanting to continue to push themselves to that level (guys like Moss, Miles and T.O.). That's what I think has happened to some of them and I think that one reason that MJ is so widely accepted and appreciated as being one of the alltime greats is because of that overwhelming drive for excellence and his relentless will to never give up on a fight. That determinatino and desire is what makes the great players great and allows them to seperate themselves from the others.
With that said I don't think that there is anyone in the league that can be compared to him yet. Kobe doesn't seem to show the effort to make his teammates work harder (he tries to do it himself), Wade and LeBron both lack some of the experience that is needed to get them to that level (and LeBron needs to keep developing his shooting). Like Ade said below MJ during rhe bulls runs always had a great supporting cast and Kobe and LeBron definitely don't have that, yet. Just some food for thought.
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Great topic ya'll!
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Call me biased, but I'll always think that Jordan is better than Kobe, just for the simple fact that Jordan signed a picture for my dad when he was a custodian at Reunion Arena.